Postzegels/Enquete postzegelrubriek

For some time now (understatement ...) the intention has been to conduct a survey about the scope of the stamp category. We are now ready to actually send them out. The intention is to use the text below for this. Given previous heated discussions on the topic of the survey: if you think it is important that something needs to be changed in the survey text, please argue this calmly without being offensive. Let's make it a civilized discussion and then ask the users' opinion (just to be sure: it is therefore not the intention to fill in the survey itself in this topic, it will be sent out separately).

Survey:

without wanting to criticize, I think this is a fairly brief interpretation of a survey that has been waiting for months. By doing it this way, there is a whole laundry list of points for improvement at point 3 and I thought that a survey should not directly address points for improvement, but rather why split or no split. Compare: why separate comics from books when the idea is to put them back together anyway ...

@Morits, What do you mean merging books and comics? That is not the case at all.

We also thought it would be good to take this opportunity to make an inventory of the further wishes of stamp collectors through a concluding question.

Rene,

1. Should stamps without postage value (not for postal use; often called cinderellas) be included in a separate section?

- Yes, include it in a separate section

- No, include it in the stamp section

Rene the discussion is about the moluccas, and they do have a postage value and were originally made for postal use, rule 1 puts it in such a way that I would even vote against ;-), If we draw up the survey like this, you actually already say what you must answer if you put the position differently namely.

1. Must stamps issued by non-recognized countries and whose stamps are not recognized by the UPU be included under postage or under a separate heading.

Then you have a fairer question, the question as it now stands, especially the stamps that were mainly discussed in the discussions, namely Moluccas and Nagaland, the stamps described in point 1, well we have never argued about AH- stamps and stuff.

Sooo what a survey can understand that it takes months to put together, how many months do you get to answer it?

Sorry for the sarcasm but this can't seriously be the long awaited survey / be everything

Hi Sinbad,

I actually tried not to name the UPU but to keep track of whether the stamps can be used to actually send mail or not. Whether the UPU recognizes something or not should not be the subject of discussion in my opinion. Because you also think that some stamps should be placed in a separate section, it is especially important to determine the boundary between those sections on the basis of an objective, measurable criterion.

What bothers me about this is the unclear description.

The whole discussion was about "fantasy stamps from nonexistent countries."

If you describe it like this, it covers a much larger group, even savings stamps.
Not many people will want to see them with the stamps ...

What I also have great difficulty with is that people who use "fantasy stamps of non-existent countries." look down and do not want to see the stamps, apparently they have a say in the name these types of stamps are given, if they were given their own section.

I can't reconcile that.

(Only now I see Sinbad saying the same thing)

@Arwin, how would you like to ask the question?

1. Should unrecognized postage stamps (for example from the Moluccas or Sahara , often referred to as cinderellas) be included in a separate heading?

- Yes, include it in a separate section
- No, include it in the stamp section

Something like that, or something like Sinbad wrote before.
The most important thing is that people know what they are voting for, and that it is indeed not about savings stamps, otherwise the survey will be useless in advance.

@Rene,

Complete fantasie landen met nepwaarden is niet de discussie geweest, het ging om Nagaland en Molukken, landen die geprobeert hebben onafhankelijk te worden, als propaganda en voorbereiding als het zou lukken zegels hebben uitgegeven en het moment is achteraf niet gebeurt, was het wel gelukt o.a. Vietnam waren het gewoon zegels geweest, een Enquete over AH-zegels enz is niet relevant, niemand wil AH zegels in de postzegelcatalogus mijn zin dekt de lading van de discussie veel beter

1. Moeten zegels die zijn uitgegeven door niet erkende landen en wiens zegels niet door de UPU zijn erkend onder postzegels worden opgenomen of een aparte rubriek.

Want hier ging de discussie over, de ander soort zegels (echt vals, vervast of grapjes) zijn nooit in de discussie geweest en worden nu als eerste vraag als de Ciderella bestempeld.

is het vooral zaak de grens tussen die rubrieken te bepalen op basis van een objectief, meetbaar criterium. 

Moeten zegels zonder frankeerwaarde (niet voor postaal gebruik

Dan loopt het criteria al in de eerste zin dus al 2 x mank. want zowel Nagaland als Molukken hebben een frankeerwaarde en de oorspronkelijk bedoeling was naast propaganda en fonsenwerving ook dat ze eens op een brief mochten worden geplakt nadat de betreffende landen onafhankelijk zouden zijn geworden.

Als je nu kijkt in cinderella's

voorbeelden.

2522011 = uitgegeven (door de NAVO gesteunde) regering in balingschap van Roemenie toen de communisten de macht grepen

2616361 & 2120199 = Alleen geldig in Dubai/Oman nooit erkend door de UPU

2202165 - 2513171 - 2491167 = Landen die probeerde onafhankelijk te worden zoals Nagaland, Dafur, Sahara en Molukken maar wat tot heden nog niet gelukt is.

Zoals je ziet hebben allen frankeerwaarde en was de bedoeling ooit postaal gebruikt te worden (naast propagande en fonsenwerving uiteraard ;-)

Een zegel als 710173 is uiteraard een cinderella's hier is NOOIT de discussie over geweest dat is ook geen postzegel

1998149 - een vals uitgegeven postzegel van een slimme criminele handelaar die deed alsof hij was uitgegeven door Haiti maar Haiti weet van niets dat is weer een ander verhaal.

De discussie gaat dus om de bovenste 3 voorbeelden zij hebben een frankeerwaarde en zijn bedoeld voor postaal gebruik, dus daar waar de ruzie/discussie om ging zijn dus n.v.t. in de enquete en daar waar het niet om ging wat volkomen duidelijk was daar gaan we nu over stemmen, ja dan stem ik ook tegen????

Gaan we later stemmen in een nieuwe Enquete over de Molukken en Nageland??

@Rene,

Complete fantasy countries with fake values has not been the discussion, it was about Nagaland and Moluccas, countries that have tried to become independent, have issued stamps as propaganda and preparation if it succeeded and the moment did not happen afterwards, would it have succeeded, among other things Would it have been just stamps in Vietnam, a survey about AH stamps, etc. is irrelevant, no one wants AH stamps in the stamp catalog my sentence covers the discussion much better

1. Must stamps issued by non-recognized countries and whose stamps are not recognized by the UPU be included under stamps or a separate section.

Because this is what the discussion was about, the other kind of stamps (truly counterfeit, solidified or jokes) have never been in the discussion and are now labeled as the Ciderella as the first question.

it is especially important to determine the boundary between these categories on the basis of an objective, measurable criterion.

Must stamps without franking value (not for postal use

Then the criteria is already limping twice in the first sentence. because both Nagaland and Moluccas have a postage value and the original intention was, in addition to propaganda and fundraising, that they could also be stuck on a letter once the countries concerned had become independent.

Now if you look in cinderellas

examples.

2522011 = spent (NATO backed) government-in-exile of Romania when communists seized power

2616361 & 2120199 = Only valid in Dubai/Oman never recognized by the UPU

2202165 - 2513171 - 2491167 = Countries that tried to become independent such as Nagaland, Dafur, Sahara and Moluccas but have not succeeded so far.

As you can see, all have postage value and the intention was to be used postally (besides propaganda and fundraising, of course ;-)

A stamp like 710173 is of course a cinderella, there has NEVER been a discussion about this, that is not a stamp either

1998149 - a counterfeit stamp issued by a clever criminal trader who pretended to be issued by Haiti, but Haiti knows nothing about it, that's another story.

The discussion is therefore about the top 3 examples, they have a franking value and are intended for postal use, so what the argument / discussion was about are therefore not applicable in the survey and there where it was not about which was completely clear here we go now about voting, yes then I vote against????

Are we going to vote later in a new survey about the Moluccas and Nagelland??

For some of us: Which are the unrecognized countries whose seals have not been recognized by the UPU? Not very difficult for connoisseurs but for beginners?

@Bert,

All countries except said are recognized by the UPU (that sounds like a stupid answer but I don't mean it that way but that's where it comes in).

Stupidly said, according to some collectors, only stamps issued by countries recognized by the UPU are stamps and the rest are cinderellas with which these countries fall under the same as, false stamps, AH stamps and poetry pictures, other collectors think in a nuanced way about this. that's the discussion

@Rene

I just gave the example that comics are in a separate section and that there is the idea of relocating them back to the books. The same now applies to the stamps category ... here it may be split first and then reassembled with new insights?

Sinbad, I don't see any country names yet. Where can you find it?

This for beginners.

@Bert,

This is such a country story we should not revisit because then Rene will go crazy ;-)

But in short some countries have fallen out of the boat for political reasons, such as: Viet Cong, Moluccas, Nageland, Darfur, Oman, Dubai and Sahara (despite the fact that they have been a large part of the Moroccans for 25 years). control occupied territory) but eg also Indonesia when it was not yet officially independent but still a bunch of freedom fighters / bandits (1945-1947)

Actually it is a political story but Rene does not want it to be played out like that, but actually it is, I say 'as a stamp collector I am not involved in politics so I do collect them', someone else does not collect them for the same reason , it is well / not really.

With yes you can collect all countries in the stamp section, with nones you will not find the above countries with stamps but with stickers.

@Arwin and Sinbad,

I understand there are also non-recognized countries that issue postage stamps that are actually used for sending mail, like Turkish Cyprus. It seems to me that we want to include them in the stamp section anyway. The criterion recognition / non-recognition is politically charged and does not directly say anything about the use or nature of the stamps.

But we should certainly not give the impression that there is a choice between whether or not to include savings stamps in the stamp category (such stamps, including closing stamps, are now regularly entered in the stamp category). The intention is not to provide no real choice. It mainly concerns borderline cases and it is important to have a useful criterion. Maybe there should indeed be examples to make it clearer.

I just gave the example that comics are in a separate section and that there is the idea of putting them back in the books anyway.

@Morits:

I've never heard of that idea.
The only thing that has ever been suggested is to think of a way to also approach the Comics from Books as a kind of sub-section that hangs below it.
I am in favor of that myself.

But that is mainly cosmetic.

Sinbad, I don't see any country names yet. Where can you find it?

This for beginners.

I think Bert asked this .

@Rene,

The non-border cases such as Closure Stamps and Savings Stamps have never been a discussion by anyone, there is no need to hold a survey about them.

Turkish Cyprus is a good one when it comes to politics, the Turkish Cyprus seals are guaranteed by the Turks and they are (a powerful) member of the UPU,

The stamps of the Viet Cong, Moluccas and Indonesia have really run (said it often very rare) in the areas occupied by the issuing rebels, so that is not an argument, however, they could not be used on post outside those countries because the other postal services did not accept them as UPU valid stamps ;-) with the exception of Viet-cong because they were valid again in the entire then communist world. (but the Americans have made every effort to ensure that these were not recognized by the UPU they also don't appear in the American Scott catalog (unfortunately again (outdated) politics).

I am not saying that Catawiki / Rene does politics, classifying by a certain group what is or is not Cinderellas has often had to do with a political preference / opinion.

We all know that the Viet Cong has defeated South Vietam and Indonesia has become independent, so these stamps have (afterwards) become less Cinderella.

At Darfur, Nageland & amp; Moluccas is wrong

And still not recognized in the Sahara, but in an area as large as France you can no longer use the official Moroccan stamps for 25 years, then it is a political story which may or may not be cinderella's (that has nothing to do with Catawiki unless Cata finally agrees, of course)

@Collecteur,

Sinbad, I don't see any country names yet. Where can you find it?

This for beginners.

I think Bert asked this .

Yes, but it does not only have to do with the countries but also the era you have stamps from oman such as 2449085 that are according to the UPU and stamps that are from another era and are CIndellela's 2120199

There are also countries that are no longer on the list because they no longer exist but did exist in the past and then according to the UPU, which are therefore no longer on the list but are official so are not CInderella such as e.g. South Vietnam.

It is a list of the countries now issuing stamps under the UPU, so not usable for stamp collectors who collect under the UPU.

Now I'm not going to interfere with the exact description, because Sinbad can do that, but about this:

(such stamps, including closing stamps, are now regularly entered in the stamp category)

Items entered in the wrong section appear in all sections.
The envelope stamp section should actually be linked from the stamp section, just like to postmarks, franking stamps and company perforations.

After all, with the comics you also link to other sections.

.

It is a list of the countries now issuing stamps according to the UPU, so not usable for stamp collectors who collect according to the UPU

So if I understand correctly, this is a dynamic list. One moment the country is recognized and you collect stamps, and the next moment you suddenly collect Cinderellas when the country is no longer recognized by the UPU.

Then in this way you still do not properly record what stamps are (have been) or not.

It should be possible to have a better definition that can make a good distinction between postage and non-postage stamps.

If that is not possible, you can consider naming everything stamps, except AH stamps, etc., etc.