Stamps/Double or Nonsense Stamps89 messages

@tapir

1) When entering, you cannot indicate from which country / postal area the stamp originates, as "Cinderella's" is already entered here.

2) The "type" is of course not "stamp" !!!

3) The usage type "fantasy / parody stamps" is also incorrect. See the discussion about this on the forum "Stamps general" - Stamps.

Why don't you think it's worth answering?

What should I answer? I don't see any questions, only opinions.

@ postmaster

1) When entering, you cannot indicate from which country / postal area the stamp originates, as "Cinderella's" is already entered here.

This is not an opinion: Cinderella's is not a country or postal area.

2) The "type" is of course not "stamp" !!!:

This is not an opinion: Cinderellas are not postage stamps.

3) The usage type "fantasy / parody stamps" is also incorrect. See the discussion about this on the forum "Stamps general" - Stamps.

On June 26, 2010 I wrote in the forum:

I have entered a number of items under the heading “Fantasy / parody stamps”.
These are stamps issued on the occasion of the International Exhibition of 1897 in Brussels, the Provincial Exhibition of 899 in Ghent, the World Exhibition of 1910 in Brussels and a stamp of 5 c. issued just after the 1st World War for the benefit of the Mutilated.
On the one hand, they are not real stamps (although some were canceled by the Post (presumably because they were pasted together with real stamps).
On the other hand, they are not, strictly speaking, fantasy or parody stamps either, but I have not found another use type for them.

Erik Boere replied:

I think we should leave these stamps out of the stamp category - because they are not stamps. Neither are the fantasy / parody stamps, but they do pretend to be a stamp. In this case they are just "stamps" - kind of like the Albert Heyn savings stamps. In the Netherlands, especially in the 1960s and 1970s, many of these stamps were issued. (Including Leiden University and the Royal Family). occasional stamps is certainly not a good name, because below we rank stamps issued on the occasion of an occasion. these stamps should therefore come in their own section "Other stamps", all kinds of savings stamps would also fit.

Op wikipedia lees ik over cinderella's:

Een cinderella is in de filatelie een zegel die op het eerste gezicht aan een postzegel doet denken, maar wat geen postzegel is. Immers niet is uitgegeven door het postwezen van een door de Wereldpostunie erkend land, gebied of (internationale) organisatie.

De term omvat een enorme spectrum aan mogelijkheden.

• Zegels met een semi-postale functie, bestemd voor alternatieve vormen van postvervoer, zoals stadspostdiensten, scheepszegels, hotelzegels.
• Ook stakingszegels, gebruikt voor alternatief postvervoer tijdens een poststaking.
• Dergelijke zegels van zogenaamde stadspostdiensten die hun geld verdienden met de uitgifte van (stadspost)zegels zonder ooit een post te vervoeren.
• Zegels bestemd om op een brief te plakken maar zonder frankeerfunctie. Bijvoorbeeld sluitzegels. In Nederland bekend van de Tuberculosebestrijding.
• Zegels die door de staat zijn uitgegeven, maar voor een ander doel dan het verzenden van post. Bijvoorbeeld fiscale zegels.
• Nog meer zegels die niets te maken hebben met postvervoer: verzekeringszegels, spaarzegels, enz.
• Fantasiezegels van niet-bestaande landen. Bijv. de zogenaamde postzegels van het (niet-bestaande) vorstendom Sedang, ergens in Indochina gelegen, welke koning Marie I in 1890 in Parijs achterliet.
• Fantasiezegels die door kunstenaars zijn gemaakt.
• Vervalsingen ten nadele van het postwezen.
• Vervalsingen ten nadele van de filatelist.
• Spionagevervalsingen, bijv. de 1½ cent uit 1935 (NVPH nr. 172) die geheime agenten meekregen als ze boven Nederland werden gedropt.
• Oorlogsvervalsingen in de Eerste en Tweede Wereldoorlog door de tegenpartij vervaardigd voor doeleinden van propaganda.
• Facsimiles van postzegels, maar op de een of andere manier duidelijk herkenbaar als niet-echt.
• Zegels die als postzegel zijn ontworpen en gedrukt, maar nooit tot uitgifte zijn gekomen. Bijvoorbeeld omdat op het laatste moment een cruciale fout wordt ontdekt.
• Proeven. Denk in Nederland aan de kleurproeven van de eerste emissies. Deze proeven zijn opgenomen in de NVPH-catalogus.

Sluitzegels zijn dus ook cinderella's. Ik was van plan om de sluitzegels uit Overig (zie hier) te verzelfstandigen in een aparte sluitzegels rubriek. Nu ik dit lees, is het denk ik beter een aparte rubriek Cinderella's te starten waarvan de sluitzegels een onderdeel zijn maar ook de andere bovengenoemde niet-echte postzegels. Het is een beetje vergelijkbaar met de Penningen rubriek versus de Munten rubriek denk ik. Persoonlijke postzegels kun je wel gewoon op een brief plakken als frankering, dus die horen nog steeds wel bij de Postzegels rubriek lijkt me.

On wikipedia I read about cinderellas:

In philately , a cinderella is a stamp that at first glance resembles a stamp , but which is not a stamp. After all, it has not been issued by the postal service of a country, territory or (international) organization recognized by the Universal Postal Union .

The term encompasses a huge spectrum of possibilities.

• Stamps with a semi-postal function, intended for alternative forms of postal transport, such as city postal services, ship stamps, hotel stamps.
• Also strike stamps, used for alternative postal transport during a postal strike.
• Such stamps from so-called city postal services that earned their money by issuing (city post) stamps without ever transporting any mail.
• Stamps intended to stick on a letter but without franking function. For example seals. Known in the Netherlands for tuberculosis control .
• Stamps issued by the state, but for a purpose other than sending mail. For example revenue stamps .
• Even more stamps that have nothing to do with postal transport: insurance stamps, savings stamps, etc.
• Fantasy stamps of non-existent countries. E.g. the so-called stamps of the (non-existent) principality of Sedang, located somewhere in Indochina , which King Marie I left behind in Paris in 1890 .
• Fantasy stamps created by artists.
• Counterfeiting to the detriment of the postal service.
• Forgeries to the detriment of the philatelist.
• Spy counterfeits, e.g. the 1½ cents from 1935 (NVPH no. 172) that secret agents received when they were dropped over the Netherlands.
• War forgeries in World War I and World War II produced by the opposing side for propaganda purposes.
• Facsimiles of stamps, but somehow clearly identifiable as non-genuine.
• Stamps that were designed and printed as postage stamps, but were never issued. For example, because a crucial error is discovered at the last minute.
• Taste. In the Netherlands, think of the color tests of the first emissions. These trials are included in the NVPH catalog .

So sealing stamps are also cinderellas. I was planning to make the seals from Other (see here ) independent in a separate seals section. Now that I'm reading this, I think it's better to start a separate category Cinderella's, of which the seal stamps are a part, but also the other non-genuine stamps mentioned above. It's kind of similar to the Tokens section versus the Coins section I think. You can stick personal stamps on a letter as franking, so I think they still belong to the Stamps section.

@ René

Congratulations for making the right decision!

However, I would ask to read everything that was written in the forum "Postzegels general" - Stamps. "By Erik Boeré about the forgeries.

I therefore strongly wish that for the new section "Cinderella's" an administrator with knowledge would be responsible for checking the entered items.

Without a review, this could have very dire legal consequences that will not benefit anyone.

All scare tactics. I do not believe that the king of the Universal Stamp Union (or whatever it is called) or the CPNB or the KNVB or the NVSH or any external party is in charge on Catawiki. If Catawiki is going to apply (or already does) self-censorship, I would like to read that somewhere on the site.

Do you already have fake comic books for sale in your shop?

Perhaps scare you, but it won't hurt if this is well thought out.

The point is that Catawiki is not only a catalog, but also a marketplace.
Then you can really seriously ask yourself, to what extent it is legally sensible that we facilitate the sale of items that violate trademark rights here.

Consider, for example, illegal stamps with the Olympic Games logo.

In this respect, I actually agree with Erik and Tapir.
In any case, have a lawyer take a look at this.

@tapir,

I am still curious about the opinions of others, such as postmaster.

@ Everyone, Nice that this discussion is swinging in all directions (from duplicate to catalog numbers to cinderelas) but I think the core of this discussion and the prevailing opinion at the moment is that the stamp catalog is a mess especially outside western europe. Outside Western Europe we may still miss 80% of the stamps.

Then why did you call this topic "Double or Nonsense Stamps"?
I believe that the discussion was actually about postage stamps outside of Europe Sorry.

@ Arwin,

No, it was not about that either, nor about catalog numbers, cindelelas and legal aspects, but it is also a forum for that, right?

And ultimately they can all be traced back to incorrect and incomplete input.

So in my humble opinion my input is indeed about Double or Nonsense Stamps (where this topic started with) ... Sorry

Tapir said:

Do you already have fake comic books for sale in your shop?

They are in my collection, yes. Why not?
Look, if Catawiki were to take a position in which they prevent these items from being traded, I am at peace with that, but not including them in the catalog I would find really ridiculous. They exist.

I think it would be a great idea to keep the cinderellas as described in Rene's post out of the stamp section. There are some things that seem to me desirable to stick to the stamps: blackprints and blueprints, modern railway stamps Belgium, July stamps. No stamps, but these are included in various stamp catalogs and are popular among collectors. How do you feel about this?

I am also curious about Erik's response on this.

I have a clear opinion about illegal issues. Stamps are securities. Just like money or stocks. Counterfeiting is a criminal action and posting it on Catawiki is contributing to the spread of illegal products.

On the UPU site there is a list of illegal issues with reports from the relevant postal services.

@ Postmaster,

Your starting point is that Catawiki determines what collectors collect, I do not agree with that, for example I collect everything including fake stamps, collecting (and according to me also the trade in most) of fake stamps (stamps from Darfur or the Moluccas are fake but you can't use them anyway) is not illegal, I also think that no lawyer will take the trouble to sue Catawiki at all.There are too many interesting real fake on the marketplace where they can really earn something and they stand in court prefers fake stamps reasonably hopeless, incidentally some fake stamps are worth more than the original ones and there is a large group of collectors (mainly topics) who collect fake stamps fanatically, so it is really (quite a lot) collected so I think they belong on Catawiki and they are also an added value compared to the official catalog

What the UPU says is (most) collectors completely sausage ..

Collecting / cataloging counterfeit stamps is really not criminal this "bold" statement by the postmaster is just absurd, you are a criminal if the judge finds it.

Should the judge find that someone who collects or catalogs counterfeit stamps or coins can be convicted, it is legal.

You may also collect fake Rolexes (do not smuggle and trade) even then you are not a criminal ... but a collector of replicas ;-)

According to these thinking, collectors from Iran against human rights, collectors from Israel against Palasties, collectors from Japan for whaling and Canada for seal hunting and people who collect ancient South Africa and the 3rd Reich are racists ..; -0 or trotter. I now go through ...

So "" Seals are also cinderellas ""

With the exception of the jul stamps of the Scandinavian countries, which are usually pasted on the envelope in front of the stamp and are thus a kind of voluntary surcharge stamp. These are also included in the Scandinavian stamp catalogs. (and sold by the postal service).

Absolutely exclude from the stamp section (and it is advisable not to include this in other sections either): the stamps that are issued as stamps on behalf of the postal administrations FRAUDULEUS (WADP list of illegal stamps)

It is very dubious and very harmful material for philately (and certainly for the affected post-administrators).

The discussion about this has already taken place before.

@ Sinbad-de-Zeeman

Jouw bericht van 8 is helaas "verdronken"  in de woelige zee van berichten over de cinderella's.

Je hebt grotendeels gelijk voor wat betreft de postzegels van buiten Europa.

Bij de invoer van nieuwe items (en dat gebeurt bijna dagelijks) stel ik vast dat inderdaad vele postzegels in de catalogus gezet worden, om ze onmiddellijk in de shops te transfereren: deze postzegels voldoen misschien aan de eisen van Catawiki, maar zeker niet aan de eisen van de echte verzamelaars. Ik probeer dan, voor wat betreft de series, deze aan te vullen, van alle beschikbare gegevens te voorzien en van een nieuwe scan te voorzien indien ik vind dat mijn scan beter is dan de bestaande.

Je kan wel begrijpen dat hierin enorm veel tijd kruipt. Vermits mijn invoer zich hoofdzakelijk beperkt tot de oudste zegels (tot circa 1935), is er nog veel werk te verrichten voor de overige.

Ik denk dat er al een oproep van Catawiki geweest is om volledige verzamelingen van bepaalde landen/postgebieden te verkrijgen, maar zo simpel is het niet altijd.

Het zou alleszins al niet slecht zijn dat landen/postgebieden die voor grote delen compleet of bijna compleet zijn een vaste structuur krijgen, zodat minstens de postzegels van een serie in de juiste volgorde verschijnen en niet kris-kras door elkaar zoals nu.

@ Sinbad-de-Zeeman

Your message of 8 has unfortunately "drowned" in the turbulent sea of messages about the cinderellas.

You are largely right about the stamps from outside Europe.

When new items are imported (and this happens almost daily), I notice that many stamps are indeed put in the catalog to immediately transfer them to the shops: these stamps may meet the requirements of Catawiki, but certainly not the demands of the real collectors. As far as the series are concerned, I then try to supplement them, provide them with all available data and provide a new scan if I think my scan is better than the existing one.

You can understand that this takes a lot of time. Since my imports are mainly limited to the oldest stamps (until about 1935), there is still a lot of work to be done for the others.

I think there has already been a call from Catawiki to obtain complete collections from certain countries/postal areas, but it's not always that simple.

In any case, it would not be a bad thing if countries/postal areas that are largely complete or almost complete get a fixed structure, so that at least the stamps of a series appear in the correct order and not criss-crossed like now.

Actually, I do agree with Sinbad. I also find it hard to live with someone else deciding what I can collect. That I am not allowed to trade them, I understand that, but that I am not allowed to collect them is not my point. My suggestion is to include them here on the site. Not with postage stamps, but with the "other stamps" section (whatever the name may be). And then make sure that they cannot be included in a shop.

As for the input, the quality is sometimes quite poor. There is also a lot of good input of course. But it is true that often an input goes directly to a shop and the quality is poor. It is also true that the catalog is still very incomplete, especially outside Western Europe. Some countries already have some items, but the quality is not always great. What also bothers me very much is that the order of the stamps is not correct and that it really is a mess.

So I have 3 work points / proposals:

1) Cinderellas and all other non-postage stamps (we agree which one it is, I think), to one other section. Where then (misshien) no trade is possible.

2) We need to better define the input fields as shown by the catalog numbers (with or without letters). There has been a lot of improvement here with the fixing of some input fields.

3) The jumble of stamps now in some countries should get in the right order.

Maybe there are still points that come back (bring it on, we are busy anyway) but to me these already seem to be things that can be worked on.

By the way, a digital round table doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. The level of the stamp category should go to a slightly higher level ...

@ iedereen,

De feiten die door tegenstanders van Cinderella's in deze discusie worden gevoerd is gewoon intimiderend en een verdraaien van feiten..ter ondersteuning van hun matige onderbouwingen

1) Crimineel = strafbaar feit plegen, het verzamelen/catalogiseren/handelen op kleine schaal van (overduidelijke) nepzegels valt hier echt niet onder (in Nederland heb je een vereniging voor Kinderlokkers, mag je sex met dieren hebben, 10 gram Hasjh op zak hebben en een valse rolex om je pols hebben, ze testen zelfs gratis je XTC-pillen op zuiverheid, er gaat hier echt niemand zich serieus druk maken over een nepzegeltje uit Congo...

2) Fraude = Oplichting, 99% van de Cinderellas zijn zo nep (het betreffende land bestaat niet of is totaal fout geschreven) dat al je je daarmee laat oplichten...dan vindt je het gewoon lekker

3) Schade aan de betreffende posterijen = als een postbode deze zegels laat doorglippen dan moet hij ontslagen worden (of een bril kopen) overigens heb ik als verzamelaar hier helemaal niets mee temaken, postzegels van Israel brengen ook schade toe aan Palestijen en dan hebben we het al helemaal niet over zegels van Noord-Korea en laten we onze eigen Legioen-zegels niet vergeten.. die waren pas schadelijk, heeft de SS een heel (nederlandse) SS-bataljon mee kunnen bewapenen in Rusland ;-)

4) Schade aan de filatelie = Ik heb ze al jaren als bijvangst ben er nog nooit ziek van geworden en mijzelf nog een ander ooit financieele schade mee berokkend. (laat mij een rapport of onderzoek zien die dit bewijst)

Dat deze termen door de (2) tegenstanders van Cinderella worden gebruikt zonder enige juridische kenis en zwaarte van deze woorden om de discusie zosnel mogelijk in de kiem te smoren (en hun zin door te drijven) vindt ik stuitend.

En beledigend, het is LACHWEKKEND Sesamstraat niveau en ik en mijn medeverzamelaars worden hiermee behandeld en bang gemaakt als zijnde een stel zwakzinnigen.

Op deze manier moeten we niet met elkaar over iets discusieren in een Forum

@ everybody,

The facts presented by opponents of Cinderella's in this discussion are simply intimidating and a twisting of facts..in support of their mediocre substantiations

1) Criminal = committing a criminal offense , collecting/cataloguing/trading on a small scale of (obviously) fake stamps really does not fall under this (in the Netherlands you have an association for Kinderlokkers, you are allowed to have sex with animals, have 10 grams of Hashh in your pocket and have a fake rolex on your wrist, they even test your XTC pills for purity for free, no one here is really going to worry about a fake stamp from Congo...

2) Fraud = Scam , 99% of the Cinderellas are so fake (the country in question does not exist or is written completely wrong) that if you let yourself be scammed with it ... then you just like it

3) Damage to the relevant postal service = if a postman lets these stamps slip through then he must be fired (or buy glasses) by the way, as a collector I have nothing to do with this, stamps from Israel also damage Palestinians and then we have let's not forget about stamps from North Korea and let's not forget our own Legion stamps.. they were only harmful, the SS was able to arm an entire (Dutch) SS battalion in Russia ;-)

4) Damage to the philately = I've had them as a bycatch for years and have never gotten sick from them and I've never done myself any financial damage. (show me a report or study that proves this)

That these terms are used by the (2) opponents of Cinderella without any legal knowledge and weight of these words in order to nip the discussion in the bud as quickly as possible (and force their way through) I find shocking.

And insultingly, it's LOUDLY Sesame Street level and me and my fellow collectors are being treated and scared like a bunch of morons with this.

This way we don't have to discuss something with each other in a Forum

It is a subject that actually applies to almost all sections.

- Bootlegs at plates
- Sus en Wis illegal publications
- Pirated Video Games / Movies

I would include them in the catalog if they have collective value. The illegal Sus en Wissen are collected and belong in every serious catalog item.

You could put a moratorium on it: no illegal things younger than 10 years old seems acceptable to me.

Scam, your name is a bit wrong in this discussion ;-)

Scam, your name is a bit wrong in this discussion ;-)

I have a 1985 Mercedes for sale with only 2000 km on the odometer, specially made for the transport of stamps. Interested? ;-)

All joking aside: you have to look at collecting here. I have never pirated video games (that may have been very stupid), but I do have some pre-owned consoles with mod chips (from the 90s) in my collection. No cat cares about that now.

Hacking a PS3 / Wii / Xbox360 is another matter altogether: disapprove, combat, just like taking up recent fraudulent stamps.

@ Scam,

I understand what you mean, the gross of the cinderellas comes from the 50s-90s, the original makers of this have been in the retirement home for a long time with a full diaper.

I find the whole discussion of Cinderellas moderately interesting, however, to be dismissed as a criminal fraudster who harms the fillatelie while I and many fellow collectors are just hardworking honest citizens who have a genuine passion for stamps and then are '' scared '' with crap I just think it is going too far

I'm also not too happy that the term criminal is being used. I have a lot of Frank Zappa bootlegs, if I put them on Catawiki, will I be considered as such? I would like to see that term disappear ...