Stamps/Swiss Post P.P.68 messages

Ik wil graag 3 nieuwe postzegels invoeren die ik niet vind in Catawiki. Het gaat om zegels Port betaald, aangekocht in Mallorca voor het versturen van postkaarten. Het zijn geen Spaanse postzegels, maar P.P. (port betaald) van Swiss Post International. een aftakking van de Zwitserse Post die in Europa, Azië en Amerika actief is. In dit geval met hun hoofdkantoor in Madrid. Als je even google gebruikt vindt men op hun website een brede waaier aan postzegels. 

De zegels die ik wil invoeren komen uit dezelfde reeks als catawiki item: 5181993

Die staat onder Zwitserland - Luchtpost.

Een oudere versie van deze reeks vind je onder catawiki item: 3478181

Gerangschikt onder Spanje - lokale post

Een andere zegels van hetzelfde bedrijf zie je onder nr: 5060975

Zwitserland, Port betaald.

Een internationale aftakking van de Zwitserse Post (dus nergens 'Helvetia' te bekennen), die samenwerkt met Franse, Duitse en Spaanse post etc... Voor deze zegels/postbezorging haar hoofdkantoor in Madrid... Maar wel Swiss Post...Het thema op de postzegels is Spaanse vakantiebestemmingen... Ik weet het zo goed niet meer :-)

Neem even de tijd om google te gebruiken en te lezen onder Swiss Post Spain, of Swiss Post officiële website...

Graag feedback om deze postzegels een correcte plaats te geven en dan voer ik de 3 postzegels in.

I would like to enter 3 new stamps that I cannot find in Catawiki. These are postage paid stamps, purchased in Mallorca for sending postcards. They are not Spanish stamps, but PP (postage paid) from Swiss Post International. a branch of the Swiss Post that operates in Europe, Asia and America. In this case with their headquarters in Madrid. If you use google, you will find a wide range of stamps on their website.

The stamps I want to enter come from the same series as Catawiki item: 5181993

It is listed under Switzerland - Airmail.

An older version of this series can be found under catawiki item:3478181

Listed under Spain - local post

You can see another stamps of the same company under nr: 5060975

Switzerland, Postage paid.

An international branch of the Swiss Post (so no 'Helvetia' to be seen anywhere), which cooperates with French, German and Spanish post etc... For these stamps/mail delivery its head office in Madrid... But Swiss Post...It theme on the stamps is Spanish holiday destinations... I can't remember :-)

Please take a moment to google and read under Swiss Post Spain, or Swiss Post official website...

Please feedback to give these stamps a correct place and then I will enter the 3 stamps.

@SaintNix

As far as I understand, Swiss-post is a commercial company that provides mail in many countries. It is therefore a competitor of the national postal service organization. It is therefore somewhat comparable with regional post / city post in the Netherlands. Only Swiss post (also) ships abroad. I would say they are Spanish stamps (if it may be called stamps at all). They can be shipped (in and) from Spain. I don't think they can be used for postcards from Switzerland to e.g. The Netherlands. I would initially import them to Spain, where it is not a local mail. On the contrary. But there may be other opinions.

Thanks for the response az60!

I found this on an ATM site:

http://www.galeriaatm.com/en/18952-spain-2012- swiss-post-mallorca-card-pp-sheet-of-10-post-paid-labels.html

If I continue searching for 'swiss post' search function on that site, I come across publications from Menorca , Italy, etc ... So for each country / island they have different 'stamps'. Overall, it is therefore a private postal company that ships internationally and also has different expenses locally. On Menorca or Ibiza you will not find the same stamps as on Mallorca ...

Item 5181993

according to this site it appears to have been released for Italy at the end of the nineties ... I think it is totally out of place with Airmail Switzerland ...

On their official site under the heading philately I find stamps for Switzerland on the occasion of marriage etc ...

Is it a stamp? It does not indicate a country, but a company: Swiss Post. No face value, but Post Paid (I paid 1 euro each for shipping).

All tips / visions welcome!

Oops, read item 5060975 that was released for Italy instead of the example in last reaction.

I was still thinking about whether it is a postage stamp and not a postage paid sticker. Unfortunately, the term Postage paid is not defined in Catawiki. In the Netherlands, Postage paid mail is offered at the post office. Settlement takes place afterwards and there is an agreement between the provider and the postal company. This is not the case here and that is why I would note the postage usage type.

The further processing of the card is done by a private postal company. This is comparable to the city and regional post. The stamps also have a somewhat local character. It would be interesting to post a stamp from Mallorca in Gran Canaria. Let's see if the card arrives in Madrid, because from there the card, probably with a mark of the official Swiss post, continues through the appropriate (read UPU-affiliated) channels. Can it still be called a city and regional post? I do not think so. Regional? I don't think so either. I would like to see city and regional mail upgraded to something along the lines of a private postal company. (And of course that should not fall under the category of use type). At the moment only 1 choice is possible for use type. So again just postage.

As a country I would choose Spain in this case. Suisse Stamps that are (exclusively) for sale in Italy and used there fall under Italy, etc. I do not think that these types of stamps on a card from Switzerland to e.g. The Netherlands can be shipped. In my opinion, they do not belong to Switzerland. If my fellow administrators think otherwise, please let me know.

In any case, thank you for these beautiful problem cases. They indicate that traditional philosophy in philately is outdated by the modern way of working at postal companies.

@AZ

As far as I understand, Swiss-post is a commercial company that provides mail in many countries. It is therefore a competitor of the national postal service organization.

It is not, Swiss Post is the Swiss postal carrier as Deutsche Post is for Germany and Post NL for the Netherlands, they are also both are also commercial and accept shipments abroad.

City and Zijpost is certainly not or you should see the continent of Europe as a region

City and regional mail is the delivery of mail by a company / individual / association within a city or region

I would rather think Switzerland - Foreign offices

They indicate that traditional views in philately has become obsolete due to the modern way of working at postal companies.

This was already done 100 years ago by Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, France and Great Britain for the Turkish Empire, Morocco and China and in the late 1940s through France in Israel?

@SaintNix

Wanneer je aandachtiger leest op

http://www.galeriaatm.com/en/19015-italy-1998-swiss-post-milano-milan-booklet-of-8-stamps-pp.html

zal je merken dat in de tekst op het boekje sprake is van "Tickets (E) - Vignetten (D) - Vignettes (F)".

Het zijn dus geen postzegels en verdienen dus geen plaats in eender welke postzegelcatalogus.

@SaintNix

When you read more carefully on

http://www.galeriaatm.com/en/19015-italy-1998-swiss-post-milano-milan-booklet-of-8-stamps-pp.html

you will notice that the text on the booklet says "Tickets (E) - Vignettes (D) - Vignettes (F)".

They are therefore not stamps and therefore do not deserve a place in any stamp catalogue.

@ tapir, when I read carefully you have no style at all to answer decently or constructively. Thank you for your contribution.

'Earn' no place in the catalog ... who are 'You' to explain / decide that? But it does end up in the letterbox at home ... Via UPU ... tip ... If they don't belong to stamps, give one alternative.

@SaintNix

I would like to enter 3 new stamps ...

You assumed these items were stamps, but, like Swiss Post it yourself, these items are not postage stamps but vignettes.

'Deserve' no place in the catalog ...

Never claimed! Please read again instead of twisting my words: "... no place in any stamp catalog ..."

Vignettes do not belong to stamps, but to the cinderellas (stamps that look like postage stamps but are not postage stamps) are now heading "Fantasy country". As far as you wouldn't know this yet ...

correct, just cinderellas. or maybe something for Others.

@SaintNix

The nice thing about the forum is that everyone sticks to their own vision. That remains as long as Catawiki does not provide definitions. A major flaw in the stamp manual. As a result, the administrators all have their own vision and therefore cannot properly review new input. The taste of the manager or the person who enters or changes this determines where a stamp will be placed in the catalog in these types of problem cases. And so it becomes a mess, because if I read all the messages carefully, they will soon be spread over Spain, Switzerland (Foreign offices), Fantasy country (= cinderella), city and regional post and others. Very handy. Especially if person A puts it in category 1, person B finds it incorrect and everything in cat. 2 put person C back in cat. 3 etc. That way we keep each other busy.

From your reaction on the forum, I notice that you are perfectly capable of forming your own opinion. I would say, since there is no guideline, fill it in at your own discretion and wait and see which administrator will review. Your question painfully reveals that we as administrators are unable to formulate unanimous guidelines. In that respect, I think it is a shame that a BC did not get off the ground. Hopefully 2.0 will provide clarity soon.

Catawiki defines under fantasy country: Cinderellas are postage stamps with no postage value, because they are issued by agencies that are not recognized by the Universal Postal Union.

Thank you az60! I will do as I see fit. I own an extensive collection of cinderellas from the first and second world war. They have never been introduced because I found it unclear and now that these items fall under fantasy land, I thought it was quite a joke.

The stamps or vignettes - what's in a name ... Have a postal value and are delivered via UPU channels ... No way that this may not take place in a stamp catalog. Managed to answer a question with cinderrela or vignette .... I didn't even find foreign offices in Switzerland ... Does this exist? I did not see it.

Switzerland (foreign offices) is not yet an existing part. Something similar has been done for other countries. So at the moment it is not an option.

There has been a huge debate about cinderella. Has led to the departure of several people. What is covered is not defined. Some people feel that anything that is not officially UPU approved belongs to this. Others see this much more broadly, consider stamps from that section to be official stamps (not all). I expect or hope that there will also be a good compromise here. But the most important thing is that the stamps are introduced! They can always be put in a better place later.

Catawiki defines under fantasy country: Cinderellas are postage stamps with no postage value, because they are issued by agencies that are not recognized by the Universal Postal Union.

This is not a definition of Catawiki, but of the person who entered or changed the text. I could change it tomorrow and so can you.

I put a label / post paid / stamp of an international (local private) postal company that is UPU bound like Swiss Post not under fantasy country ..

Entered it under Spain / private postal stationery ... Private company. From the moment you apply the label to the envelope, it becomes a postal stationery. Is sent from Mallorca to Belgium, vignette not stamped, but a digital code printed on envelope and delivered by my regular postman together with the other mail.

5453361

In Fantasyland, stamps like 'Nagaland' etc. belong. .. Nice picture / theme, no postal value, but a value on the stamps ... stamps that had no postal value or for dictators and dim regimes, and with which some people have earned a lot of money / and have been convicted of fraud in processes in the '80's and 90's.

Fantasyland is a mess ... The rubbish bin of Catawiki, and many stamps there do not deserve that.

What progress would it be that Catawiki gives the option to enter a country under this heading under the heading seal stamps. Country, year, theme ... Can be perfectly arranged in a logical order. As in stamps Now you can only enter the publisher ... Army ... Royal family ... Expo .... Or as some enter FRANCE ... Yes, then you have a country ... But everyone just does something . And then they put a seal under cinderella (Fantasy country in Catawiki) ... And you still have to enter the country in the title ...

Seal stamps section:

If I now a seal 'never again - no more wieder' (read: no longer welcome) from 1920 Belgium wants to introduce ... Theme Army? Publisher? Nowhere can I enter Belgium than in the title or description and it is a vignette from just after the First World War. Certainly private ...

An expo in France is indicated by an importer for a closing stamp as the theme 'France' with year. I understand him because he wants to indicate that it is French ...

A seal of the provincial commander of Zeeuws-Vlaanderen last century may perhaps sound logically in the Netherlands as 'army', has a nice place in sealing stamps ... Everything neat ...

But in 1943 some letters in Estonia had a vignette of collaborators next to the German occupation stamps or at the back of the letter ... Do I put this under Army Estonia in seal stamps? Company? ... Another German vignette: Eat more brown bread (1943) .... (White became rare) That was also on the postmarks at that time and as we still had a few years ago in the style 'Celebrates Mother's Day 'via the regular postmarks on our envelopes in the mailbox ... I want to link this to a country. Not to a firm in seal stickers.

If you think internationally, this is impossible. COUNTRY ... YEAR ... THEME ... All 'Julle' and Christmas vignettes, tuberculosis and winter relief vignettes etc could get a place in this section ... Does anyone not know this year ... so be it ... It is still under a country and the category of sealing stamps ... Now 'Efteling' Fantasyland is full of sealing stamps ... And post vignettes from private companies should be given a place there ...

My opinion: Upgrade seals with the option - country -.

I think I just wrote a somewhat 'fucked up' cover letter for administrator seals? ;-)

Have a nice weekend,

Sven / SaintNix

Beste Reaguurders,

Graag wil ik  even reageren omdat wij naast de postzegel en munthandel ook agent zijn voor Swiss-Post in Nederland.

Swiss-Post zoals hierboven beschreven is "gewoon" een internationale postorganisatie, die is samengegaan met LaPoste (FR) en al sinds enkele jaren internationaal bekend is als Asendia. En sinds kort ook actief is in Nederland voor iedereen.

Bovenstaande postzegels zijn ook postzegel en horen thuis bij het land waar deze zijn uitgegeven c.q. verkocht.

Wij versturen zelf ook al 2 jaar, sinds de vestiging in Nederland er is,  met Asendia onze internationale post.  o.a. postzegels en ansichtkaarten.

In Nederland zijn nog niet van deze adhesives te koop, ,wat komt door het zg. monopoly van PostNL, maar worden deze op de aangeleverde brieven geplakt op de postverwerkende bedrijven van Asendia.(o.a. in Son en Breughel)

Ook  aangetekende en verzekerde post doen ze. Ter vergelijking; bij Asendia betaal je voor het aantekenrecht 4.75 Euro boven op de normale porto. (0-20 gram , Binnen de EU 0.85 Euro, buiten de EU 0,95) , bij PostNL is dit 11.00 Euro resp. 16.95 (!)....

Met uiteraard de zelfde voorwaarden zoals PostNL of Deutsche Post , zoals staan beschreven in de Internationale Postwet...;-) (Dus o.a. vergoeding tot 50.00 Euro bij verlies)

Met vriendelijke groet, Frans Kalf (PZH Kalf & PZMH De Dieze)

Dear Commenters,

I would like to respond because, in addition to the stamp and coin trade, we are also an agent for Swiss-Post in the Netherlands.

Swiss-Post as described above is "simply" an international postal organization, which has merged with LaPoste (FR) and has been internationally known as Asendia for several years. And recently also active in the Netherlands for everyone.

The above stamps are also stamps and belong to the country where they were issued or sold.

We have also been sending our international mail with Asendia for 2 years since the establishment in the Netherlands. including stamps and postcards.

These adhesives are not yet for sale in the Netherlands, which is due to the so-called monopoly of PostNL, but they are pasted on the delivered letters at the post-processing companies of Asendia (including in Son en Breughel).

They also do registered and insured mail. For comparison; at Asendia you pay 4.75 Euro for the registration fee on top of the normal postage. (0-20 grams, Within the EU 0.85 Euro, outside the EU 0.95), at PostNL this is 11.00 Euro resp. 4.95 (!)....

With of course the same conditions as PostNL or Deutsche Post, as described in the International Postal Act...;-) (So including compensation up to 50.00 Euro in case of loss)

Kind regards, Frans Kalf (PZH Kalf & PZMH De Dieze)

@Kalf999

Dank voor de bijkomende uitleg, maar de reden waarom Swiss Post zelf spreekt van vignetten en niet van postzegels (postage stamps, briefmarken of timbres-poste) is nog altijd niet uitgelegd.

En je gaat me toch niet vertellen dat Swiss Post het verschil niet zou kennen tussen een postzegel en een vignet.

@Kalf999

Thanks for the additional explanation, but the reason why Swiss Post itself speaks of vignettes and not of stamps (postage stamps, lettermarks or timbres-poste) is still not explained.

And you're not going to tell me that Swiss Post wouldn't know the difference between a stamp and a vignette.

A copy / paste of the Belgian post website:

• Simple : is prepaid with bpack World Light stamps (available at a post office, Post Point or on our eShop). Or have your bpack World stamped with a sticker at one of our points of sale.

Stamp and sticker are used in 1 sentence here. Both for franking. ... FRANKING is the essence, right?

A vignette is proof of payment. That's a stamp too. I don't think there is any difference in function. Is there a difference in material, so that one is a vignette and the other a postage stamp? Not essential. Is there a difference in appearance? Not essential. Is the difference in the name? A seal was a print, often made in wax, intended to authenticate the sender. This was attached to a letter on the back as a closure. The affixing to a letter is the only similarity between the seal and the postage stamp. So a stamp is just a piece of paper with value, but so is the vignette. Is the difference then that if an official body issues it it can be called a stamp and if a competitor operating on the market does it it must be called a vignette? To me that is a totally irrelevant fact. It is about the function and it is the same. To me these vignettes are stamps.

Is there a dark shadow in the background that prevents some Catawiki administrators from taking a healthy stance on this? Or to respond constructively? I'm on the same page as az ..., but that doesn't matter. Other members enter their copies in 4 different places ... It exists, it is used, the normal postman delivers to the mailbox at home ... Some hate official catalogs like Michel, etc and swear by the Catawiki catalog .. Now prove it?

Opnieuw:

Dank voor de bijkomende uitleg, maar de reden waarom Swiss Post zelf spreekt van vignetten en niet van postzegels (postage stamps, briefmarken of timbres-poste) is nog altijd niet uitgelegd.

Bijkomend:

Waarom ben ik deze (of gelijkaardige) vignetten nog niet tegengekomen in de catalogussen? Of heb ik slecht gezocht?

Again:

Thanks for the additional explanation, but the reason why Swiss Post itself speaks of vignettes and not of stamps (postage stamps, lettermarks or timbres-poste) is still not explained.

additional:

Why have I not yet come across these (or similar) vignettes in the catalogues? Or did I search badly?

I am stopping this topic and will stop responding. I imported neveloppe in Spain Swiss Post 2013. As a private postal stationery ... Private as a 'private company' and postal stationery because from the moment I stuck that ... Sticker? ... on it was sent by post ... (For me, tn was prepaid postal stationery). I'll see where it ends up in the Catawiki catalog ... Fantasy country or Efteling ... It ends up in my letterbox from Mallorca ...

Very good idea to start this topic, bad idea to just want to stop it all of a sudden. If you're guy enough to start the topic, then just sing out the ride. Right?

As far as I am concerned, I would like to know if this should be a special Type (Swiss Post Vignette?), or if they should all be in the same Country / Territory (Switzerland - foreign offices?), with the Type ' Seal '. It is obvious to me that they belong to Stamps, but I want them all to be shown in one gallery in one way or another. And fill the nominal value with 'p p', if it says so.

Then, as a user of Catawiki, I watch with enthusiasm how the administrators arrive at one solution. Mvg, Sven / SaintNix