LastDodo site & app/Auctioneers who contradict each other21 messages

Ik koop 2 maanden geleden een strip op catawiki: 

http://veiling.catawiki.be/kavels/1311763-pom-en-teddy-de-zwarte-talisman-incl-kuifje-s-punt-hc-met-linnen-rug-1e-druk-1958

Ik had twijfels omtrent het feit dat laatste titel niet klopt met een eerste druk (gezien ik geen foto van de achterkant zag op catawiki) en dit wordt me door een veilingmeester meegedeeld :

"Eerlijk gezegd geloven we niet zo in een ons onbekende druk. Het lijkt er eerder op dat dit een gerestaureerd album is met de achterkant van een ander album uit de Lombard reeks.
Zou je misschien nog foto's willen sturen van de schutbladen en dan met name de plaats waar ze aan de rug vastzitten? Als ze daar onderbroken zijn geweest, hebben we hoogstwaarschijnlijk met een fout gerestaureerd album te maken.
In dat geval neem ik contact op met de verkoper dat hij het album moet terugnemen". 

Ik stuur de gevraagde foto's door, en blijkt om een gerestaureerd album te gaan. Ik kom zelfs met de verkoper tot een overeenkomst tot gedeeltelijke teruggave. So far so good.

Uiteindelijk heb ik toch het gevoel dat dergelijk fout exemplaar niet echt past in mijn verzameling, en ik beslis het te verkopen op 2dehands met nodige uitleg. Wordt voor een prikje verkocht.

Nu wordt dit album door degene die mijn album kocht, aangeboden als zijnde een volwaardige eerste druk, en nog een zeldzame ook!

Zie link:

http://veiling.catawiki.be/kavels/1903955-pom-en-teddy-lombard-collectie-41-de-zwarte-talisman-+-opdrachttekening-hc-1e-druk-herbinding-1958-59?previous=favorites

Raar wereldje catawiki. Hahaha schatting tussen 150 € en 275 €. Voor een fout gerestaureerd album? By the way, "suave" op 2dehands zal ook in zijn handjes wrijven....

Dus : geloof geen veilingmeesters? Of wat is hier de moraal van het verhaal?

I buy a comic on catawiki 2 months ago:

http://veiling.catawiki.be/kavels/1311763-pom-en-teddy-de-zwarte-talisman-incl-kuifje-s-punt-hc-met-linnen-rug-1e-druk-1958

I had doubts about the fact that the last title is not correct with a first edition (as I did not see a photo of the back on Catawiki) and this is communicated to me by an auctioneer :

"To be honest, we don't really believe in an unknown print. It seems rather that this is a restored album with the back cover of another album from the Lombard series.
Would you perhaps like to send pictures of the bracts and in particular the place where they are attached to the spine? If they have been interrupted there, we are most likely dealing with an incorrectly restored album.
In that case I will contact the seller to take the album back."

I send the requested photos, and it turns out to be a restored album. I even come to a partial refund agreement with the seller. So far so good.

In the end I have the feeling that such a wrong copy does not really fit in my collection, and I decide to sell it on 2dehands with the necessary explanation. Sold for a small price.

Now this album is offered by the person who bought my album as a full first edition, and a rare one at that!

See link:

http://veiling.catawiki.be/kavels/1903955-pom-en-teddy-lombard-collection-41-the-black-talisman-+-commission drawing-hc-1e-druk-herbinding-1958-59?previous= favorites

Weird world of catawiki. Hahaha estimate between 150 € and 275 €. For a wrongly restored album? By the way, "suave" on 2nd hand will also rub his hands....

So : don't believe auctioneers? Or what's the moral of the story here?

Vooropgesteld dat ik niets weet over deze strip, ben ik het met je eens dat het nogal twijfelachtig klinkt, zo zonder enige bronvermelding:

Aangeboden album is een zogenaamde herbinding. Wordt wel gerekend als een 1e druk, echter met een afwijkende achterkant van een jaar later. Bij het inbinden in 1958 waren er achterkanten tekort. De restant boekblokken, covers en schutbladen worden dan bewaard voor een volgende inbindronde. Een afwijkende versie uit 1959 dus en zeldzamer dan de versie uit 1958.

De informatie ontbreekt bij 36911, maar er is wel minimaal 1 andere verzamelaar die zo'n zelfde exemplaar met afwijkende achterkant (laatste titel "De grote match" i.p.v. "Leve de sport") in zijn bezit heeft.

Dan is de vraag dus nu: is dat ook een restauratie (cq. vervalsing), of is het toch aannemelijker dat bovenstaand verhaal op waarheid berust?

Edit: dit veilingkavel bevatte ook zo'n afwijkend album (zie foto 13), evenals deze veiliing. What are the chances?

(Overigens vermoed ik dat de bieders zich vooral laten leiden door de tekening, wat natuurlijk niet wil zeggen dat de verdere informatie misleidend mag zijn.)

Provided I don't know anything about this comic, I agree with you that it sounds rather questionable without any source credit:

Offered album is a so-called rebound. Is counted as a 1st edition, but with a different back from a year later. When binding in 1958 there were shortage of backs. The remaining book blocks, covers and endpapers are then saved for the next binding round. A different version from 1959 and more rare than the version from 1958.

The information is missing at 36911 , but there is at least 1 other collector who owns such a copy with a different back (last title "The great match" instead of "Leve de sport").

So the question now is: is that also a restoration (or forgery), or is it more plausible that the above story is based on truth?

Edit: this auction lot also contained such a different album (see photo 13), just like this auction . What are the chances?

(Incidentally, I suspect that the bidders are mainly guided by the drawing, which of course does not mean that the further information should be misleading.)

So discovered a new copy that can still be added to the catalog.

(I wouldn't add it as 1st edition.)

I have also recently a "new" HC from the Lombard collection added. The reaction was also that it was a restoration. Because there was only a linen spine ... but also a plastic version.

If the spine is new and it is clearly visible that the paper connecting to that spine is damaged, then you should really assume that the spine has been restored.

I agree with Morits. That spine is far too perfect compared to the covers. Bound again.

Edit:

@Bookstore

Edit: this auction lot also contained such a different album (see photo 13), as well as this auction . What are the chances?

Those Black Talismans in both auctions are the same, just look at the 'sticky tape remnants' at the top left. That spine also looks suspiciously fresh compared to the rest of the album. The same creative reminder?

That's right, Scam, the books are the same in both auctions. I bought it at the first auction, sold it back secondhand to a Dutchman, now this book is being auctioned a second time by the same Dutchman.

After the first auction (so read: as commission income an established fact) we contacted catawiki and they dared to respond with an explanation that could be labeled as truth for me (so that it was a 'false' copy).

Because say for yourself, the explanation in the current auction about that "binding round" sounds strange to you, doesn't it? But here again commission can be collected, so Catawiki squeezes all sorts of things ...

Or am I too sarcastic and someone else sees that? I look forward to your opinion.

In any case, had I received the explanation that now appears in that second auction, I would have kept the book neatly, of course, instead of giving it away almost for free. .

I dare not draw any conclusion based on photos alone. For that you really have to have the book in your hands (preferably with another copy for comparison).

Because I have some experience with bookbinding and book restoration, I know that it is extremely difficult to keep such a linen spine neat. As I said I don't know about this book, but if a restoration means that the back cover is not original, can someone tell me where such a replacement back cover might come from? I see in this series no obvious (cheaper) candidates for such a donation.

@JozefK: Indeed, Bedetheque also mentions a reprint of 2 months later for the French edition with " dos plastique rouge ".

Dag Boekenmagazijn, that's a very justified comment, I hadn't looked at it that way yet. Indeed, where does that replacement back cover come from?

So this reinforces my suspicion that I have been misled by an auctioneer, and that it is not a fake one.

But because of this I have I wrongly banned the book from my collection ... and I have to search further.

Another argument for assuming that this is not a counterfeit copy is the fact that the book is currently already making a profit of 201 €.

Already 2 people want to pay that price range, and seem to agree with the explanation about the deviating book cover.

And saying that the previous auction of THIS book ended at 75 euros:

http://veiling.catawiki.be / lots / 1311763-pom-and-teddy-the-black-talisman-incl-tintin-s-point-hc-with-linen-back-1st-edition-1958

The argument that the one auctioneer used to prove that the book has been forged is a great added value for the other auctioneer!

You can buy loose covers and book blocks for a bargain price. Recently saw such a lottery ticket on Marktplaats or Ebay (don't remember where). All loose Lombard covers / book blocks etc.

And who knows, that 'rebinding' (another new catalog category for 'publication': D) does exist.

What I want to say: a perfect spine on a worn cover ...
But not to me, everyone does what they want with their money.

Dear K.K.,

On January 26 this album was indeed auctioned for the first time at the Comic Auction. The Black talisman is not offered every week, but it is regularly offered for auction.

Since January 26, 25 other comics auctions have been organized with an average of 150 lots, that is about 4000 lots ... We can so make sure that auctioneer 2 in April could not know that the same album was previously offered to auctioneer 1 in January.

After you expressed doubts about the pressure of this album, auctioneer 1 additional photos requested. Those photos are not included in both auction lots. Auctioneer 2 therefore did not have the same information as auctioneer 1. "Auctioneers who contradict each other", may be a catchy and suggestive title, but it is not at all self-evident that 2 people after 3 months, without additional information and solely on the basis of the displayed photos, come to the exact same conclusion.

Auctioneer 1 has done his best to immediately short-circuit a possible complaint about the authenticity and printing of an album, and sought a solution for the buyer. He has clearly wanted to avoid a yes-no story. He has been very honest about his doubts, but they remain.

Also note the word "most likely" in his statement.

The auctioneer has not been able to take this album in hand for verification. The buyer can do this. That is precisely why comments from buyers are always carefully heard and investigated.

I have established that the system worked correctly here: the auctioneer has given the buyer (you) the benefit of the doubt, and you has therefore negotiated a discount from the seller.

But, what is the true facts about this album?

What is in the description today is correct: both publishers Lombard and Casterman initially produced hardcover albums, bound albums with (usually) linen spine.

A printer always has leftovers from covers, backs, endpapers, quires with the strip plates, linen for the spine in various colors ... A printer namely never prints an "exact" number. You don't stop a printing press exactly on the stop line by stepping on the brakes, like a car. A press is always stopped when the desired number "approximately" has been reached.

In concrete terms, let's say that to produce a print run of 5000 copies, for example, 5150 covers are printed, and 5002 backsides. Then 5000 albums can be bound, with the same cover and back cover, and marketed.

In a next round of printing, for a next album, the backs will be printed again, now adjusted because more titles have been published. After a while they have several leftover parts, from which complete albums can be put together, with different backsides. Every now and then a previously unknown specimen turns up. It also explains the existence of albums with different colored backs. In the 1970s there was still fierce debate among collectors about what was now the "real" first edition, so research has shown that such exceptions are simply bundles of remnants. If there is only 1 regular first edition of an album, such an album is therefore a variant of the first edition.

Very probably this album is indeed a "rebinding" (in French it is called that is a "recartonnage").

The photos are not detailed enough to make this claim with 100% certainty, but the way in which the cover and back cover the spine perfectly indicates that this album may originally have been bound. Over the years I have seen many restored Lombard albums with repaired spines: you can never reproduce something like this as perfectly as it was originally bound by the printing company.

Finally, it is very understandable that you are now sorry has, that this album was resold too quickly and cheaply on secondhand.be, with possible financial loss.

However, Catawiki has at no time encouraged you to make that sale. According to your statement, you yourself have decided that such an incorrect copy does not really fit in your collection.

That is why it is a pity that this is now being blamed on the auctioneer, who in the end handled your complaint correctly, so that you ultimately made a bargain. The rather gratuitous remark "don't believe auctioneers" is undeserved in my opinion.

With kind regards,

Patrick Vranken

Head of auctioneers

I have established that the system worked correctly here

Formally, it may be, but you cannot deny that the wrong conclusion of the auctioneer means that both the first buyer and the first seller were duped.

I have no doubt that the auctioneer acted in good faith, but when discussions have been going on since the 1970s about precisely these kinds of variants of Lombard editions, the comment shows "To be honest, we don't really believe in a pressure unknown to us" but his expertise has fallen short here.

It often happens that bidders have unrealistically high expectations of the "experts' knowledge. ". This is inherent to the way in which auctioneers are presented (as an experienced and professional intermediary) and you cannot simply blame buyers if they react disappointed.

I would like to see experts who do have the right information have to pass this on more often, preferably by means of an explanation of the items in the catalog (or a background page to the series). After all, that is the ideal place to make that knowledge available to all collectors (and auctioneers).

ik kan ook alleen maar op mijn gheugen afgaan, maar omdat ik sinds de jaren 70 wekelijks bij Hans Matla over de vloer kwam, heb ik ook wel opgevangen en gezien dat sommige van die Lombards bekend waren met een afwijkende achterkant. Ik kan echter niet benoemen over welke albums het dan ging, maar dat ze er waren was toen al wel duidelijk.

Neemt nog steeds niet weg, dat een beschadigd exemplaar met een nieuwe rug niet klopt.

I can only go by my memories, but because I visited Hans Matla every week since the 1970s, I have also heard and seen that some of those Lombards were known with a different rear. However, I cannot name which albums it was about, but it was already clear that they were there.

Still does not alter the fact that a damaged copy with a new spine is not correct.

Dear PV,

Auctioneer 2 did not have the same information as auctioneer 1

The only information needed to determine a pressure is the back cover showing the last title. They both had this. And that's what the whole story revolves around. (According to Catawiki, 1st edition has the last title "Long Live the Sport", the book in question has the last title "The Great Match").

He clearly wanted to avoid a yes-no story

I literally told him in an email "if it is a first edition, I would like to keep the book". There is no impetus for yes-no.

Furthermore, the auctioneer 1, who in my opinion also acted in good faith, indicated that he would consult with colleagues. So here a TEAM was involved to make a judgment, not just a few.

Strange that no one in that team has thought of a "rebinding that is counted as a 1st edition"? While this appears to be self-evident in the current auction?

Catawiki did not encourage you to make that sale at any time. According to your statement, you yourself have decided that such an incorrect copy does not really fit in your collection.

Indeed, due to the incompetent conclusion of a team of auctioneers, I mistakenly considered this book a false reprint, and it had to go.

What would you do if someone from the National Bank told you that a particular banknote in your wallet is counterfeit? Let it sit?

which ultimately made you a bargain

The only thing that did bargain is THX STRIPS whose auction ends on 27/04/2015. I didn't make any profit, as I got rid of the book at a financial loss.

Beste K.,

Omdat het hier een specifieke vraag betrof over een technisch aspect, dat ook de verzamelaars op het forum kan interesseren (de herbinding van een Lombardalbum), heb ik uitgebreid gereageerd op uw vraag.

Aangezien wij de wet op de privacy moeten respecteren, worden klachten verder nooit openbaar behandeld op een forum. Indien u wenst dat uw probleem verder opgevolgd wordt, gebruik daarvoor alstublieft de voorzien kanalen en neem contact op met de klantendienst.

met vriendelijke groet,

Patrick Vranken

Head of auctioneers

Specifications.,

Since this was a specific question about a technical aspect, which may also interest the collectors on the forum (the rebinding of a Lombard album), I have responded extensively to your question.

Since we have to respect the law on privacy, complaints are never discussed publicly on a forum. If you would like further follow-up on your issue, please use the channels provided and contact customer service.

Kind regards,

Patrick Franken

Head of Auctioneers

.

Mijn probleem hoeft helemaal niet opgevolgd te worden. Klantendienst kan voor mij niks betekenen.

Ik heb enkel mijn mening gegeven over het Catawiki-team.

En dit zal misschien wel enkele verzamelaars op het forum interesseren?

Tot slot : uw uitgebreide deskundige uitleg over herbindingen was zeer interessant en verrijkend, temeer dat er in uw team 2 maanden geleden nog niemand van een herbinding gehoord had.

My problem does not need to be followed up at all. Customer service means nothing to me.

I have only given my opinion about the Catawiki team.

And this might interest some collectors on the forum?

Finally : your extensive expert explanation about rebindings was very interesting and enriching, especially since no one in your team had heard of a rebinding 2 months ago.

Goed, dan sluiten we dit af. Ik zal niet verder reageren via het forum.

Tot slot nog opmerken dat uw conclusie "dat er in uw team 2 maanden geleden nog niemand van een herbinding gehoord had" voor uw eigen rekening is. Op geen enkel moment heeft een veilingmeester dit beweerd noch bevestigd.

Het feit dat de veilingmeester schrijft "dat hij niet zozeer gelooft in een onbekende druk", betekent niet dat hij nog nooit van een uitgevers-herbinding gehoord zou hebben. Het betekent, dat hij er op dat moment niet in geloofde.

met vriendelijke groet,

Patrick Vranken

Head of auctioneers

Okay, then we'll close this. I will not respond further through the forum.

Finally, note that your conclusion "that no one in your team had heard of a rebond 2 months ago" is for your own account. At no time did any auctioneer claim or confirm this.

The fact that the auctioneer writes "that he does not believe so much in an unknown print" does not mean that he has never heard of a publisher's rebinding. It means he didn't believe in it at the time.

Kind regards,

Patrick Franken

Head of Auctioneers

I happen to see that a paragraph has now been added to the lot description (the second one) and that the last paragraph has been adjusted. Has this also been made known to all bidders?

@boekenmagazijn:

Zodra bekend was dat dit album eerder aangeboden werd, hebben we beide aanbiedingen kunnen vergelijken. Wanneer tijdens een veiling extra informatie bekend wordt die belangrijk is voor de bieder(s), kan de beschrijving alsnog aangepast worden.

In dat geval worden de bieders daarvan op de hoogte gebracht.

Dat is hier uiteraard ook gebeurd.

met vriendelijke groet,

Patrick Vranken

Head of auctioneers

@bookstore:

As soon as it was known that this album was previously offered, we were able to compare both offers. If additional information becomes known during an auction that is important to the bidder(s), the description can still be adjusted.

In that case, the bidders will be notified.

That, of course, happened here.

Kind regards,

Patrick Franken

Head of Auctioneers