Stamps/Repoeblik Indonesia separate Country-Areas29 messages

Hallo CW,

Op dit moment staan postzegels van Repoeblik Indonesia bij het land Indonesië. De eerste Catawiki postzegels van Indonesië zijn van 1948 terwijl Repoeblik Indonesia in 1945 begint. Waarom niet een apart land/gebied voor Repoeblik Indonesia?

1943-1944 = Japan - Bezetting Nederlands-Indië (staat al apart)

1945-1948 = Repoeblik Indonesia

1948- heden = Indonesië

Info: Mijn bedoeling is filatelistische duidelijkheid in Catawiki, niets meer.

Hi CW,

Stamps from Repoeblik Indonesia are currently listed with the country of Indonesia. The first Catawiki stamps from Indonesia are from 1948, while Repoeblik Indonesia starts in 1945. Why not a separate country/area for Repoeblik Indonesia?

1943-1944 = Japan - Occupation of the Dutch East Indies (already separate)

1945-1948 = Republic of Indonesia

1948- present = Indonesia

Info: My intention is philatelic clarity in Catawiki, nothing more.

Hi Fredmcency,

There have been many discussions about these Viennese Prints, they can be found under Indonesia - Viennese-prints

Have fun

Hoi Sinbad,

Het gaat niet over de Weense drukken.

Het gaat over postzegels gemaakt in (denk ik)-Indonesië na de Japanse bezetting met opdruk 'Repoeblik Indonesia' of d'r eigen zegels in de oorlogtijd met NL tussen 1945-1948.

zie:1655521 - 1655503 - 1656163 - 1655615 - 2044763 - enz - enz

(Filter in Indonesië tussen 1945 en 1947 om alle zegels in CW te zien)

Er zijn al +170 postzegels van deze tijd in catalogi beschreven, en veel meer  in handen van verzamelaars.

Repoebliek Indonesia is zelfs onderverdeeld in:

- Java en Madoera (frankeer en port)

- Sumatra

groet, Fred Mc Ency

Hi Sinbad,

It's not about the Viennese printings.

It's about stamps made in (I think) Indonesia after the Japanese occupation with overprint 'Repoeblik Indonesia' or d'r own stamps in the wartime with NL between 1945-1948.

see: 1655521 - 1655503 - 1656163 - 1655615 - 2044763 - etc - etc

(Filter in Indonesia between 1945 and 1947 to see all stamps in CW)

There are already +170 stamps of this era described in catalogues, and many more in the hands of collectors.

Republic of Indonesia is even divided into:

- Java and Madoera (postage and postage)

- Sumatra

Regards, Fred McEncy

@Fred

Er spelen een paar zaken door elkaar. De politieke situatie, het verschil in naam en de collect-a-ROM problematiek

In 1945 is in het machtsvacuum de repoeblik Indonesia uitgeroepen. Iets later is het land opnieuw door Nederland bezet. Zij gaven zegels met Nederlands-Indie uit en later met Indonesia. Uiteindelijk hebben de Indonesiers de strijd gewonnen. Zij beschouwen de repoeblik uitgaven als officiele uitgaven. De laatste door Nederland uitgegeven zegels met daarop Indonesia zijn ook officieel gebruikt in de zelfstandige repoebliek Indonesia en horen dus ook thuis bij Indonesie. (Ik aarzel nog over de Wilhelmina-zegels). De zegels van en met Nederlands-Indie, door Nederland uitgegeven, zijn vergelijkbaar met de uitgegeven zegels in Nederland ten tijde van de tweede wereldoorlog: door de duitsers uitgegeven zegels in bezet Nederland. Deze zegels hebben we wel opgenomen bij Nederland.

Het verschil zit in de landsnaam. Bij de Duitse zegels in Nederland staat gewoon de naam Nederland. Bij Indonesie staat geen Indonesia, maar Nederlands Indie. Nu hanteert Catawiki het principe dat de zegels per land zijn ondergebracht, zoals dat op de zegels staat. Dus vinden we de zegels van Frans-Somaliland, Afar- en Issaland en Djibouti niet bij elkaar. Of Opper-Volta en Burkina Faso. Of Zijn Noord- en Zuid-Vietnam apart van elkaar en niet volledig ondergebracht bij Vietnam. Hetzelfde geldt voor de Bondsrepubliek en de DDR. Reden is natuurlijk dat de aardrijkskundig minder onderlegden weten waar ze een zegel moeten zoeken. Persoonlijk vind ik het interessanter als de historie van een land in een rubriek aanwezig is. Misschien kan dat nog eens vorm krijgen op een manier dat die zegels bij twee landen komen. De Japanse bezettingszegels horen thuis bij Japan, maar ook bij Nederland en Indonesie.

Het derde probleem is de volgorde die bepaald wordt door Collect-a-ROM. In tegenstelling tot wat je mailt beginnen de postzegels van Indonesia niet bij 1948, maar bij 1945. Alleen als je op de eerste pagina kijkt, zie je de postzegels uit 1948. De zegels uit 1945 vind je op pagina 88. Als je op jaar sorteert komen ze keurig vooraan te staan. Helaas wordt de volgorde nog steeds door Collect-a-ROM bepaalt. Eerst komen alle zegels van deze invoerder, daarna pas zegels die door anderen zijn ingevoerd. Ik weet dat Arco bezig is om hier verandering in aan te brengen (hoop ik). Ik hoop zo voldoende duidelijkheid te hebben gegeven.

Persoonlijk ben ik dan ook geen voorstander om de zegels van de repoeblik in een apart deel onder te brengen. Zij horen meer bij Indonesie dan de door Nederland uitgegeven zegels met daarop Nederlands Indie. Maar beiden horen in mijn ogen onlosmakelijk tot het postgebied Indonesia.

Voor de filatelistische duidelijkheid zou ik kiezen voor:

1945 - heden = Indonesie

1945-1948 = Nederland - Bezetting van Indonesie

@fred

A few things are intertwined. The political situation, the difference in name and the collect-a-ROM problem

In 1945, the repoeblik Indonesia was proclaimed in the power vacuum. A little later, the country was again occupied by the Netherlands. They issued stamps with the Dutch East Indies and later with Indonesia. In the end, the Indonesians won the battle. They consider the repoeblik expenses as official expenses. The last stamps issued by the Netherlands with Indonesia on it were also officially used in the independent Republic of Indonesia and therefore also belong to Indonesia. (I'm still hesitant about the Wilhelmina stamps). The stamps of and including the Dutch East Indies, issued by the Netherlands, are comparable to the stamps issued in the Netherlands during the Second World War: stamps issued by the Germans in the occupied Netherlands. We have included these stamps in the Netherlands.

The difference is in the country name. The German stamps in the Netherlands simply state the name Netherlands. Indonesia does not say Indonesia, but Dutch Indies. Now Catawiki uses the principle that the stamps are grouped per country, as stated on the stamps. So we do not find the stamps of French Somaliland, Afar and Issaland and Djibouti together. Or Upper Volta and Burkina Faso. Or Are North and South Vietnam separate from each other and not completely subsumed under Vietnam. The same applies to the Federal Republic and the GDR. The reason is, of course, that those who are less well versed in geography know where to look for a seal. Personally, I find it more interesting if the history of a country is present in a section. Perhaps that can take shape in a way that those stamps come to two countries. The Japanese occupation stamps belong to Japan, but also to the Netherlands and Indonesia.

The third problem is the order determined by Collect-a-ROM. Contrary to what you e-mail, the stamps of Indonesia do not start with 1948, but with 1945. Only if you look on the first page, you will see the stamps from 1948. The stamps from 1945 can be found on page 88. If you sort by year they come right up front. Unfortunately, the order is still determined by Collect-a-ROM. All stamps from this importer come first, followed by stamps imported by others. I know Arco is working to change this (I hope). I hope I have provided sufficient clarity.

Personally I am therefore not in favor of placing the stamps of the repo tin in a separate section. They belong more to Indonesia than the stamps issued by the Netherlands with the Dutch East Indies on it. But in my opinion both belong inextricably to the Indonesia postal area.

For philatelic clarity I would choose:

1945 - present = Indonesia

1945-1948 = Netherlands - Occupation of Indonesia

@az60

It is very simple and the problems are solved quickly:

- or you start Indonesia in 1945 after the Japanese occupation (difficult)

- or you start Indonesia in 1948 after the Dutch (re) occupation, and Repoeblik Indonesia 1945-1948 is in a 'group' separately.

Example:

1.- The Netherlands

1.1. - Ned. India (1845-1948)

2. - Indonesia

2.1. - Japanese occupation of Ned. India. (1943-1944)

2.2. - Repoeblik Indonesia (1945-1948)

2.3. - Republic Indonesia (1948 - present)

Now it is unclear on CW and that is a shame because they are very interesting stamps.

See catalog Uitgeverij Zonnebloem , they solved this nicely;)

Fred Mc Ency

We both strive for clarity and both want a more prominent place for the stamps used during the revolutionary period. We only differ whether those seals should have their own place or not. Incidentally, the Z catalog makes a distinction between the stamps used on Java / Madura and those on Sumatra, so one more category. I consider us both to be reasonable experts or higher of the stamps of Indonesia. We know the way. But someone who is not an expert (stamps obtained after inheritance, etc.) is looking for a break. He simply searches Indonesia (1948-present) and does not see the stamp. The stamps themselves do not provide clarity either, because it says Repoeblik Indonesia, Republik Indonesia and N.R. Indonesia. So again, they are looking at Indonesia. Chopping a land in all kinds of sub-areas is useful for the connoisseurs, but not for the layman.

And again if that far! @ # $% ^ & Amp; * order of Collect-a-ROM is removed, the revolutionary seals are given the most prominent place, namely at the front. Just like in the sunflower catalog. The only difference, I expect, is that Sumatra and Java / Madura will get mixed up. But we can indicate that in a different way, for example with specifics.

So ::

1.- The Netherlands

1.1. - Ned. India (1845-1943)

1.2. - Japanese occupation of Ned. India. (1943-1944)

2. - Indonesia

2.1. - Republik Indonesia (1945-present)

2.2. - Dutch occupation of Indonesia (1945 - 1948). I do not take this too seriously, I may also consider 1.1.

I would like to emphasize that the republic of Indonesia was proclaimed on August 17, 1945, after the capitulation of Japan. The Japanese occupation was before and could never have been an occupation of Indonesia. It was an occupation of the Dutch East Indies. I think most of the world, with the exception of the Netherlands, views it that way.

Personally, I find it more interesting if the history of a country is present in a section

That can simply be mentioned at the background page of Indonesia and anyone who knows of has done.

CataWiki is not of politics and therefore does not care about officially recognized or unrecognized stamps. CataWiki just wants them all in the Catalog.

I agree with az60 that an ordinary collector (me, for example) should also be able to find his stamps. I also have (post?) Stamps from Maluku Selatan (by heart, so I hope I wrote it correctly). Then I would first look at the countries with an M, then at Indonesia and then at the Moluccas (or vice versa). I hope that I can find those stamps and add them to my collection.

I don't think CataWiki does subgroups, so that format is nice, but it is not applicable.

And then still just a political thought. I think Sukarno had declared the declaration of independence during the war in order to bother the Dutch, so that he could make it his own country (Indonesia) that was occupied during the war. In this way, not Dutch territory was occupied, but Indonesian territory. Something like that helps me from history lessons, but I'm never too old to learn.

@Disney

You could be right, but as far as I know, August 17, 1945 is the day of the independence proclamation. You can see it frequently on Indonesian stamps. Obviously there was a preliminary phase involved, but I think the Indonesians see that day as the day of independence and the start of the nation.

But I am not that old yet, so I can learn a bit more.

By the way, you can find the Maluku Selatan stamps at the S of South Moluccas. I hope that the name on the stamp will one day be linked to the Dutch name, with a kind of alias. Or a list of countries and translations in the handbook. Or whatever.

'Java, Madura and Sumatra were still in Japanese (hard) hands when Japan surrendered to the Allies on August 17, 1945, ending WWII. There were no Dutch troops present to re-occupy their (?) Territory, and before British Indian troops land to receive the surrender in September / October 1945, a local republic had already been proclaimed. NL starts to fight .. etc. '

source: World history stamp atlas

@ az60

I hope that the name on the stamp will one day be linked to the Dutch name

I really don't understand why no administrator has ever done that. Came back some time ago in another topic. I am currently updating this directly when working on the country table.

@Arco,

Are there also times when you are not working? ;-)

I really don't understand why no administrator has ever done that.

Apparently Catawiki offers even more options than I knew. I don't know how that can be done.

Administrators who have access to the country table can fill the Name Variation field with it. Just search for 'Maluku Selatan'.

Ik blijf het jammer vinden dat de namen (zoals ze op de zegels staan) niet als alias gekoppeld zijn, omdat ze dan ook in de landenlijst te vinden zouden zijn. Maar gelukkig vindt de zoekmachine ze wel.

Ontbreken nog: 

Danmark
Ceska republika / ?eská republika
Ceskoslovensko / ?eskoslovensko
Slovenija
Slovensko / Slovenská posta
Turkye / Türkye
Vaticane / Vaticano

(Hm, die C met een vinkje erop herkent het forum niet.)

En de Sovjet-Unie zou ook als CSSR gevonden mogen worden.

I continue to regret that the names (as they appear on the stamps) are not linked as aliases, because then they would also be found in the country list . Fortunately, the search engine finds them.

Still missing:

Denmark
Ceska republika / ?eská republika
Ceskoslovensko / ?eskoslovensko
Slovenia
Slovensko / Slovenska posta
Turkey / Turkye
Vatican / Vaticano

(Hm, that C with a check mark on it doesn't recognize the forum.)

And the Soviet Union could also be found as CSSR.

Done in between.

I was still filling in between ;-)

Even those are done in between.

Thank you for clarifying Book Store. Now I get it, I was trying out some different countries. Saw an error in the country list:

Kenya-Uganda-Tangayika instead of Tanganyika with an n in it.

Also a snack?

Yip.

edit: By the way, why do you write Kenya and Uganda differently there?

Maybe because it says so on the stamp? And they have chosen the Dutch name East African community. In itself I am happy with the name on the stamp combined with a Dutch name.

So Sverige and Sweden, Helvetia and Switzerland, Suomi and Finland etc.

Isn't Suomi Finland? After all, the stamps of Switzerland do not show Helvetia (or Helvetica?) And Switzerland either. And I think there is really Suomi Finland on the stamps.

Finland was indeed not a good example, but we can replace it with a number of other countries, for which the same applies, such as Hungary - Magyarország.

You're absolutely right, Elizabeth.

Stupid mistake, sorry.

Today I received an envelope with stamps from Republika Hrvatska ( 4040167 to be exact). Can't be found yet.

A few days ago I misspelled Türkye, it must be Türkiye. By the way, none of these variants return a search result.

Well, if you starts making mistakes, it can only get worse after that.